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Jul. 27th, 2009 | 05:05 am

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Shock

from: anonymous
date: Jul. 27th, 2009 12:18 pm (UTC)
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To be fair it isn't gay penguins in love triange shock, it is one (up to now) gay penguin, one bisexual penguin and a heterosexual one (unless, of course, they are all bisexual). Seems as if the gay guy is the only monogamous one so far ..... So much for the bible.

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The Princess of Id

Re: Shock

from: danaseilhan
date: Aug. 3rd, 2009 01:52 pm (UTC)
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Well, to play devil's advocate for a minute, the Bible doesn't say gay people can't be monogamous. It says gay behavior is an abomination hated by God. It helps to know what a book actually says if you're going to dismiss it.

I'm not going to blame religious people for going along with what their scripture says. I'm more annoyed by religious people who don't. Like the ones who say God isn't judgmental--oh bullshit, if He exists He certainly is. Dude's got standards. Any living thing does. Shit or get off the pot--if you don't like what a faith teaches, don't follow it! No need to reinvent the damned thing.

They say, "oh, religion has to change with the times." No it doesn't. Better not say that to indigenous groups who have been living their beliefs for probably thousands of years. Religion is a way of passing on cultural mores, which is vital to an indigenous group's survival, and it would be vital to ours, too, if we didn't use machines for crutches. If you change it around all the time, nobody knows what the rules are or how to behave and things kind of fall apart. It'd be like if the cops decided to change the speed limit every 24 hours without any prior warning as to what it would be the next day. Can you imagine the chaos during rush hour?

That said, if a bunch of different cultural groups are going to exist under the same national flag and government, that government should be secular and not favor any one of those cultural groups. So how Christians feel about gay people should be legally irrelevant. I have never opposed the idea of Christian churches refusing to marry gay and lesbian couples. They have that right. But they should not then deny the courthouse the right to legally marry those couples, either.

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The Princess of Id

(no subject)

from: danaseilhan
date: Aug. 3rd, 2009 01:42 pm (UTC)
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You know I've been affiliated with various subcultures over the last ten years (though we've only been in contact for maybe the last seven). This includes varying degrees of contact with the LGBT community. So when I first heard about the gay penguins I was pretty happy. Now, I dunno. I've heard too many LGBT folks express sentiments indicating that they do NOT, in fact, believe their preferences to be hardwired. The most memorable instance was an article or editorial I read in some feminist forum or another (website? magazine? book? I read too much, I don't remember now) where the author decided that yes, a woman can still be a lesbian politically even if she's decided she prefers men after all.

To say nothing of the "bisexual" women I knew who all wound up involved with or married to men. Two out of the three that I was closest to had big problems with intimacy with women, usually preferring to admire from a distance. That was weird.

Lots of valid arguments against what I've said, about social pressure and cultural pressure and laws and such... of course, I realize that, thank you. Nevertheless, there have been quite a few cultures in which gayness was not only allowed but given a special role in the society, and yet most people did not go around holding pride parades. Most people were in het pairings. Of course, human families did not always center around a stranger-pairing, either. Sometimes the woman stayed with her birth family and the guy showed up, knocked her up and moved on, and her brothers were father figures to her kids. And there were other variations, none of which involved homosexuality.

I notice more and more people experiment with teh gayz the more domesticated the culture becomes and the more it indulges in abstract thinking--the more intellectual it becomes. The ancient Greeks were an excellent example. They went so far as to say that pederasty was more enjoyable than sex with women. The women, by the way, were severely restricted insofar as their personal rights.

So it's funny. The Christians say being gay is giving in to animal desires, and yet the closer we are to living as animals, the less "gay" we are, on average. When we start gettin' all highfalutin' cerebral and believing we're better than the rest of the planet, that's when it comes out. No pun intended.

As for the penguins, it has been documented numerous places that animals behave differently in captivity. For instance, we derived our ideas about wolf behavior from observing a captive "pack" that was really a bunch of strangers thrown together. A wild wolf pack is a family, comprised of mom, dad, and pups of varying ages. They don't play the constant dominance-submission games. Why? They already know their places. I've observed the same thing in my cats. Three are a family of a mom and two daughters; one was a solitary until recently. I'd found her at a park as a kitten and raised her. She finds the family utterly incomprehensible and I'm sure they do her too, and there is a lot of hissing and chasing around the house, not of the friendly kind. Another example would be the bonobos, which we think of as very sexual, but the truth is that most of the sex they have is a way to blow off steam--so they're not sluts, they're stressed out. Guess where they're most likely to be stressed? Three letters, begins with Z and ends with O. Or any time humans are watching them, really.

Bottom line... if you can show me a gay penguin couple in Antarctica that has never encountered human beings, that might be something. Animals acting weird in a zoo? Not remarkable.

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The Princess of Id

(no subject)

from: danaseilhan
date: Aug. 3rd, 2009 01:46 pm (UTC)
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Couple more thoughts:

1. It doesn't matter to me personally whether LGBTness is hardwired or not. Religious preference is not hardwired either, yet it is legally protected. What's good for the fundies is good for the queers, as far as I'm concerned. (As in "I'm here, I'm queer, I'm fabulous," not as in "ew, a queer.")

2. But, if you don't really believe something, you should not claim that something. That is also known as LYING. It wrecks your credibility and creates backlash. You will rarely if ever hear these folks say their stuff's not hardwired where homophobes might hear it. They know better. But it disturbs me. Why even play that game? They're letting the fundies define them by fundie terms. The pro-choice movement does the same damn thing. Quit it.

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